Casey Van Allen (a.k.a. Dennis Klautzer), Co-owner/Vice President, Viper Communications, Inc., Osage Beach, Missouri
By Jerry Vigil
We’ve read many stories in the pages of RAP about Production Directors who make the break from radio to open their own production company or make it full-time in the voice-over business. But we’ve yet to talk to a production guy who made the break and became a station owner! Turn back the pages all the way to 1992, the December issue of RAP, the RAP Interview. Casey Van Allen (real name, Dennis Klautzer) was the Production Director at KMOX in St. Louis at the time. Even then, he had already stepped into station ownership as an investment, but a decade later Casey would leave the comforts of a steady paycheck in corporate radio to actually work at his station – the best decision he ever made, as he recalls. Join us for a remarkable visit with Casey as he treats us to his story and gives us a glimpse of the life of a Production Director turned station owner.
JV: When we last talked with you in 1992, you were the Production Director at KMOX in St. Louis, a powerhouse talk station. And even then, you owned a couple of radio stations. Let’s pick up from there and tell us what’s happened since then.
Casey: Well, back in ’92 we had 101.9 KBMX, which is a station that was in this market here in Osage Beach. That’s where we are now, here in central Missouri in the Lake of the Ozarks. My partner, Ken Kuenzi, and I have been best friends since we’ve been 13 years old, and over the course of time we have owned part of or all of a number of radio stations in the state of Missouri.
I continued to work at CBS/KMOX in St. Louis up until 2001, while at the same time owning these stations and having other people run them. And then one day, after going through all the changes in corporate radio and the change of regimes in the management of KMOX, I said, “You know, I’ve sat here and I’ve help make them a lot of money over the years. It’s time for me to get serious and go do it for myself and not have other people run my businesses.” And it’s turned out to be really the best decision I ever made. I guess it was scary at the same time. When the decision was made, I was driving in downtown St. Louis in terrible rush hour traffic. My partner Ken called me and said, “Our number one salesperson just quit. They want to go do a religious thing. Why don’t you come down here and play salesman?” I thought, you know, that’s the one area of radio I have yet to explore. I had done every single other job in radio. I had been a Chief Engineer. I had been a Program Director. And this is at St. Louis stations. I’d been a Chief Engineer in St. Louis, and a Program Director of a St. Louis station. I’d been a disc jockey. I had hosted my own TV show. I had done everything, but I’d never been a salesperson.
I said, “Well, time to make a new challenge.” Back in 2001, I no longer owned the radio station I had, which was KBMX. We had bought the two heritage stations here in Lake of the Ozarks, KRMS AM and FM. We bought them in ‘97. So I decided I was going to come down here and start selling. I came down originally just to sell, but I ended up taking over the sales department and kind of spearheading it. The station was not billing very well then; it was hand to mouth. I have been here seven years now, and I have quadrupled the income to the radio station.
JV: That’s pretty impressive. What do you attribute that success to?
Casey: I think what happened is I took all of my knowledge from being a creative guy, being a program guy, and all of the knowledge that I gained from the people I worked with like Jerry Donovan, Rod Zimmerman, Tom Langmyer, and all those people at KMOX and KXOK that I worked with. I took that knowledge and applied it to my task and it worked. It worked because we are all a product of the people we work with. That’s where we get our business values, and thank God I had good role models that tutored me. And that includes all the salespeople at KMOX, probably some of the best salespeople I’ve ever known. That station was number one, not because of its sales staff – it did have great programming, too — but I believe that a great radio station is really only great because it is a sum of the people that live inside its walls.
Rod Zimmerman runs WBBM in Chicago now. Tom Langmyer runs WGN now. They were really instrumental in instilling good radio values. And of course, I can’t overlook Robert Highland who hired me at KMOX, and the people that I worked with there. There’s Bob Costas and Dan Dierdorf — just wonderful, wonderful talent to work with.
Anyway, you take all of that knowledge and all of that experience and you kind of put it into sales, and that’s what drove my bus. I looked for salespeople that could manage their own bus and drive their own bus. I gave my salespeople the curbs of the road, and I’d say, “Keep the bus on the road.” In other words, keep the rate; stay true to the rate for the radio station. But sell an idea. And that’s where my creative energy came into play.
When I read your magazine the last time, it really distressed me reading about the state of disappointment within radio among the creative people. I know now more than I’ve ever known it in my entire life — and take it from somebody that’s owned radio stations and has been in creative, been cranking out 50 spots a day, writing spots — creative people, the production department, really is, without a doubt, the very best job in all of radio. And I say that unequivocally. It really is. And here’s the reason why. The reason is that radio is ideas. Everything starts from an idea. And where do the ideas originate? They originate with the creative mind. Now, some Program Directors are very creative, and I’ll grant them that. But I think that really the energy of radio, the real root energy of radio, is in the creative department. And that spills off to every other department.
It’s always been about ideas. You’ve got to have a great idea to program before the sales department can sell it. The engineer can put it on the air, and the General Manager can manage people to produce the product of the idea. But it all starts at the root.
The problem is, I think the creative people have been so burnt by all of the perils of the industry right now. And I don’t blame the large radio groups completely. I blame mostly the FCC for changing the rules of the game. They changed the rules of the game and the corporations just said, “Oh, they’re going to let us do that? Well, we can do that then,” and the fallout proceeded.
But I don’t think that is really the end-all, be-all for radio. We as creative people have to just find our niche. We have to find our niche in radio and create something for radio that is not being produced today. Because once we create that, sales will follow, engineering will follow, and the whole chain will start again.
We’ve got to come up with something for radio that is better than who’s got the best CD collection. It can’t be about the records you play anymore. There are too many people out there playing every mix of music that you can possibly imagine, and all we’ve trained our audience to do is push buttons until they find the best song. I think that’s where we need to go.
JV: You said something that sounded a bit strange, something you told the salespeople about staying true the station’s rate card. I’ve always assumed that, for the most part, nobody’s on the rate card; everything’s negotiated, usually downward. Would you say your direction to keep the rate is rare in our business?
Casey: I don’t know if it’s rare or not, but I know it works. And I think you’re absolutely right — the whole “rate card adjustment theory” is what I call it. It came along first when we came up with NTR, and we started throwing in freebies with the schedule. Buy so many spots and I’ll give you your logo on our website and a click through. We started discounting ourselves. Then another radio station comes into your market and starts selling spots for $3.00. Well, the problem is that the consumer believes that all radio is worth $3.00 then. So for the salesman for the good radio station, they have to then sell an idea. It starts with an idea. The salesman has to sell himself, sell how radio works, and build a relationship, but not necessarily in that order.
That’s where the value of radio is done. The problem with a lot of radio stations is that they think, okay, spots are $3.00, and the whole market needs to readjust to $3.00. Well, that’s not the way it works. The way I do it is I value the radio station. I price out the radio station based upon the return on investment. So if a person spends $100.00 on my radio station, are they going to get that $100.00 back in new business? If they took that $100.00 and put it into a savings account, aren’t they going to get 5 percent on that money in interest? So if they’re spending $100.00, they need to get that money back plus in new sales. Now, if I value the radio station so that they don’t get that, then I’m pricing the radio station incorrectly.
You look at how many commercials it takes to get customers into your business and actually spend. Of course, my job is only to get customers in the front door. It’s the business’ job to close the deal. But if I can get people in the door, and I know how many commercials it takes on each station to do that, then I can price that. I price the value of the radio station to that return on investment.
Now a lot of radio stations don’t look at it that way. They say, “Well, I’m not quite as good as this radio station, and my sales team isn’t quite as good as that radio station and they can’t close the deal as well. So I better sell my radio station based on price. So, I’ll lower the cost of the spots so that I can get in on the buy.” The problem is that you get what you pay for. You always get what you pay for.
This is the terrible dichotomy that radio has found itself in. They keep lowering the cost of the spots, and they’re not making any money. And when the radio station doesn’t make any money, the radio station has to cut back its expenses. When it cuts back its expenses, it starts to fire people because it can no longer operate. Then what happens? Well, we play a few more records and take the disc jockeys off the air.
So you see the spiraling thing we’re going down in, but it doesn’t have to be that way. Managers, program people, they need to hold the rate. They need to believe in the product and the return on the investment that they provide the businesses that support their programming ideas. And thereby, they’re able to make a business. It’s very simple. It’s basic economics.
JV: You sound like the kind of owner that any kind of production person would want to work for. How are things different at your stations for your creative people because of your background?
Casey: Well, I think it’s just one word – understanding. That’s really what it’s all about. I feel the frustration when they’ve got too many spots to do and they feel overloaded, and when they feel like they are so overloaded that they’re compromising their talent. I don’t want anybody in this radio station, whether it’s talent or production people or anyone, to feel like they are so overloaded that they’re compromising their talent. Because you can never cheat yourself; and by cheating your talent, you’re cheating the radio station and everybody in it.
So, when I see the stress alarm go on in people, I try to pitch in and help out. I mean, from my experience, I can whip out 20 commercials pretty fast. I can read them, produce them, and get them done pretty quickly. Sometimes I feel like they get so stressed out that they need a break, too. So I just go in and help them out.
JV: So you still get your hands on the equipment?
Casey: Oh, yeah. And you know what? I love it when I can get into the production room and get away from the phones.
JV: Your voice, by the way, sounds better than ever. Have you continued to do things with it other than the occasional helping out in production, perhaps a little free-lance?
Casey: Yeah, I still do some. I still have a lot of car dealers I do in St. Louis, and I’ve got about four radio stations and a TV station I do. I just don’t have the time to do it like I used to. This place will keep you busy.
JV: You have the AM/FM combo there in Osage Beach, but you also have a 3rd station in Florida, right?
Casey: Yes. Here it’s the AM/FM. The AM is news/talk, and the FM is adult hits. Then we also have an AM station in Englewood, Florida, WENG. That’s a news/talk station.
JV: And your partner runs that one?
Casey: He kind of floats between both of them. He’s really a Florida kind of guy. This past year he went down there in December, and he just came back last week. He’ll probably be here through the summer, and then go back this fall again.
JV: What’s one of the most surprising things you learned about radio from that other side over there in management, something creative types might not ever get a glance at?
Casey: Being fair. Being fair to all employees. Being fair to not only all the employees, but being fair to all the other businesses and sponsors that support the radio station. A lot of times when there are problems in a radio station, we kind of put the blinders on and we look at how it affects us. A good manager is really looking at how it affects everyone, not just the production department. Because whatever rule you make for one person, you have to make it for everyone.
I think another thing is just trying to keep everybody happy, positive and motivated. Sometimes I feel like I ought to put on a little skirt and be a cheerleader, just to keep everybody positive, particularly sales, because you know what? Sales is really the toughest job in all of radio. It really is. These sales guys go out there every day and they’re getting told no, no, no, no, no by everybody in the community. And then they come in and in a lot of radio stations, they’re slapped with tons of paperwork. And then the production guy will say, “No, I don’t have time to do that commercial. I’m so busy I can’t do it. I’m out of here.”
So the salesperson comes back into what should be his haven of support and comfort and is faced with even more negativity. And if there’s anything that’ll take a radio station down, it is negativity. It’s people not working together. Let me go back to what I said earlier; a radio station is the result of the total product of every human being in there. Everybody has to pull on the rope equally. Everybody has to support each other equally.
We think that every radio station has its stars, and they should have their stars, and everybody should support the stars. But the stars don’t need to rub it in everybody’s faces. I mean, everybody has to pull on the rope equally, and everybody has to realize that they all have equal strength.
JV: So in a case where a salesperson comes in at 4:30 or a quarter to five, after a day full of rejection, with an order that he says has to start in the morning, where do you draw the line between doing what’s right for the client and giving the production person more time to crank out a decent commercial, and doing what may be best for the station or the salesperson and rushing the spot through so you can take care of those avails that are there in the morning?
Casey: Well, the one thing about radio that we can’t give up the ghost on is our sense of immediacy. There is no greater sale than being out and telling the client, “Yeah, I can have this on the air in an hour.”
JV: Thanks a lot! [laughs]
Casey: I know you’re going to say that. But, you know we can’t give up the one thing we do best. Yes, there are elements of quality. Yes, there are elements of just respect. “Come on guys. You can’t ask me to build a big building here in 30 minutes and get it on the air!” I mean there are limits, but the salesmen are always going to do that. “You have got to change this tag for a bar. They got a new band coming in tomorrow night and they want it on right away.”
JV: That’s understandable. I mean, if they come in at a quarter to five and say, “Hey, the club wants to change this 10 second tag,” that’s fine. I’m talking about the new client that the salesman finally snared, and his closer was, “What if I say I can get this on the air tomorrow?” And the client says, “Okay, you got me.” Then he comes back to the station. You want to give this new client their money’s worth and have the spots work for them. You’ve got to write a spot from scratch. You want it to be something more than a laundry list, don’t you?
Casey: Well, you really want to educate your salespeople. I allow all of my salespeople the privilege of doing production. I have taught all of them how to use the software myself. And you know what? I’ve got some salespeople that are pretty darn good. But the reason I taught them that is because now they understand how much work it takes to do a commercial. Knowledge is power. I think that when they know how hard it is to cut up a voice track and to make it all time out right and to add the music and find the right piece of music and go search out the sound effects… when they understand it, it’s not a problem. Chances are they’re only going to pull that ace when it’s absolutely necessary.
JV: No doubt many of our readers have had at least a daydream or two about owning their own radio station. Their first thoughts are probably going to be things like, “Oh, that’d take more money than I could come up with,” or “That’s way too much work.” How feasible is it for the average creative guy or girl to become a station owner?
Casey: It’s not hard at all. I can tell you the creative people just need to take a chance and believe that they can do it. Believe it because it’s not that difficult. It’s not any more difficult than buying a house. There are many deals out there. There are many radio stations that you can buy today, especially today. And you’re not going to start with a 100 kilowatt FM. I didn’t start with a 100 kilowatt FM. When Ken and I started our first station, it was in 1976. I was 24 years old. I went to the bank to borrow $60,000 to put this thing on the air, and I thought my whole world was ending.
But if you believe in what you can do — and you should because everybody could do it — running a radio station is not difficult. It really isn’t difficult. The regulation the FCC puts on you is difficult to understand, but it’s not difficult beyond that. You can buy a radio station for two, three hundred thousand dollars in some markets. Start there and build up that revenue. Once you build it up and make it sound really good, like only creative people can do, someone will hear it and come along and offer you some money for it.
But you see, creative people are the only people that can do it. A guy that wishes just to be the General Manager can’t do it because he’s not an idea generator. He’s not at the root of radio. A Program Director could do it if he’s smart. But if that’s all he’s ever done and he’s never been a disc jockey, he really doesn’t have the creative energy.
And engineers… many engineers have tried it. Many engineers have fallen. They know how to put the transmitter on the air, and they know how to get the signal in the air, but you ask them how to create a program and then go out and market it, and they can’t do it.
So really, the creative people are the ones that can do it, and I say to them, “Do it. Take the chance. Do it. Test your ideas. Do it.” It’s not difficult. You may find an owner that wants to retire and just let you run it in exchange for a profit. Take the profit and put it back into the radio station as a purchase price. There are a lot of deals out there, but you can’t find them unless you go look.
JV: You mentioned in one of our email exchanges the idea of having five creative production people producing everything that went on the air, instead of having five jocks, and just running the whole thing by automation. Tell us more about that idea.
Casey: Well, that’s really my ultimate idea. I would like to have a radio station where I would get five or six really incredible people together that can produce product at an alarming rate. And instead of having disc jockeys, you insert this content. Maybe don’t even have music. The ideas are open. The ideas are countless. But I’m talking about producing product for the radio that is really listenable, and then just let the automation fire it off. Now isn’t that what television does?
That’s exactly what television does, and maybe we could learn something from them. Instead of playing the same thousand records over and over and over and over and over and over again, maybe we need to develop some sort of idea for radio. Whether it’s talk or something else, I don’t know. Maybe it’s features. We need to find out what the people want to listen to and then use the creative mind to create it and then put it on the radio and invent something new, something different, something to listen to rather than some Led Zeppelin records.
I’m kind of thinking that it would maybe be something like Osgood’s deal that he does on Sunday morning on CBS. Maybe it’s something like that. Maybe it’s music features. I don’t know. There are so many things that we could create that are listenable.
JV: Are you currently experimenting with this idea a little bit?
Casey: Only in my head. The problem is that it’s a very costly kind of radio to do. But I’m putting some ideas down on paper, and I’m moving. I hope that sometime, somewhere, someone will give me the bank account and the opportunity to do it. I know the guys from the old Brown Bag, Mike Lee and them, they’re putting it together. He’s kind of working in the same thought process as I am, I guess. He’s a great creative mind, and I think that the future of radio may come from that, or something like that. It has to come from great creative minds.
That’s where I’m so dismayed by all the negativity among my brethren in the creative industry. They’ve been dumped on by these major companies, and it’s not the company’s fault. It’s really not. We want to blame the company, but we can’t. It’s the state of radio. It’s the state that the FCC has put radio into by allowing the rules to change. The corporation doesn’t want to get rid of people. These radio stations would love to have 200 people on the payroll if they’ve got the income to support it.
JV: Is this your next goal, or are you pretty happy doing what you’re doing for a while?
Casey: I’m having a pretty darn good time right now, but I would welcome the opportunities because this radio station is running itself. It really is. We’ve got a finely tuned, finely greased machine, and we have people in place here that I am so proud of. They need very little direction from me.
Maybe I’m looking for those five creative people, find some company that wants to take a chance and work to create something that people will talk about for a long time, something creative.
JV: Any final thoughts you’d like to pass onto other GMs and station owners on dealing with their creative people or staff in general?
Casey: Well, as I mentioned earlier, the station is as big a success as the quality of people inside the station. I remember how it was when I was the creative person. You feel like you are the only one sweating over the details and feeling unappreciated. I have a plan to fix that. When the station meets its sales goals, which we always have done, I take everybody in the station on an all-inclusive vacation to Mexico. I take half of the 20 employees to Cancun and the other half to Puerto Vallarta. If they don’t want to go with us, they can take cash. After they have been with me for one year, they are eligible. The great thing about this program is it forces everyone to work together for a common goal. It’s not just the sales department that gets the rewards. It also sends a message out into the community what we do for our employees. An added bonus is that it is now easier to hire people because they know what we do for them. I’ve often wondered if it has any effect on the competition. It’s nice to all go on vacation together and celebrate our success. Every year we come back with stories. By the way, I get to go on both trips.